Beyond Football - Freestyle Football Forum
Freestyle Soccer Forum => Freestyle Chat => Topic started by: Yen on Sep 24, 2012, 10:06: AM
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What are your thoughts on the setup, organization, judges, livestream and all for RBSS this year?
I thought RBSS actually took a lot on board this year and decided to have some freestylers take part in the judging which was quite encouraging to see. The ball didn't seem to be much of an issue this year as we saw a lot of high quality performances out there. The livestream was actually pretty decent; more player with the ball shown rather than the crowd. The stadium and atmosphere was sick, 21,000 people wow! Apart from having Cannavaro judge creativity, (no hate on him, great football player but not the best pick to judge creativity) I thought it was a real success. :PDT_Armataz_01_37:
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Agreed, I also loved the whole tv program setup with all the interviews and the trickpedia part. It looked very professional. Maybe the first time I ever felt that freestyle football got the recognition that it deserved on a big stage.
I also wasn't surprised to hear that RBSS will be organised on a yearly base from now on starting in Tokyo next year. I really think Red Bull is planning to put freestyle football on the same level as all their other extreme sports, which mainly take place in the US. Freestyle could be one of their 'toys' for the European market.
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Remove the football players as judges for publicity stuns (its like asking lance armstrong to judge bmx, it doesnt make any sense). Apart from that the setup was AMAZING, the stream was very HQ and not lagging at all for a FREE stream. Obviously cant judge the ball since i Havent tried it. Only the commentator next to daniel should give less his opinion cause it was usually pretty bad. Making horrible calls over who will win etc.
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everything was perfect ( EXCEPT CANNAVARO JUDGING CREATIVITY) :P :p
but next time have jerry the king lawler as commentator :celebrate: :celebrate: :098: :098:
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Just curious, why is everyone saying Cannavaro is such a bad judge, but no one seems to care about the bboy as a judge? I personally think those two guys should both be removed from the judging panel. I'd prefer a footballer to a bboy any day. At least a footballer can juggle. Also, I'd rather meet a footballer, and the fans will be excited about a big name footballer being there. We have to remember Red Bull must market this to soccer fans as there isn't enough freestyle only fans in the world. Palle, Touzani, and Mr. Woo were all great for judging. I think they could just go with three judges, so they don't have to find 2 to replace the footballer and the bboy.
Overall, I thought the competition was great. The venue was absolutely amazing, the live stream looked extremely professional, and the quality of freestyle was great. This is the type of competition that is going to bring outside interest to freestyle. I know for a fact that my soccer friends that I show the video to will all love it. This isn't the case for all freestyle events, but this one was special. I think the positives more than outweighed the negatives in RBSS this time. Hopefully, it will be even better next time.
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Just curious, why is everyone saying Cannavaro is such a bad judge, but no one seems to care about the bboy as a judge? I personally think those two guys should both be removed from the judging panel. I'd prefer a footballer to a bboy any day. At least a footballer can juggle. Also, I'd rather meet a footballer, and the fans will be excited about a big name footballer being there. We have to remember Red Bull must market this to soccer fans as there isn't enough freestyle only fans in the world. Palle, Touzani, and Mr. Woo were all great for judging. I think they could just go with three judges, so they don't have to find 2 to replace the footballer and the bboy.
Overall, I thought the competition was great. The venue was absolutely amazing, the live stream looked extremely professional, and the quality of freestyle was great. This is the type of competition that is going to bring outside interest to freestyle. I know for a fact that my soccer friends that I show the video to will all love it. This isn't the case for all freestyle events, but this one was special. I think the positives more than outweighed the negatives in RBSS this time. Hopefully, it will be even better next time.
Letting a pro judge is one thing, letting him judge creativity is just stupid. You cant let someone judge about that if he probably doesnt even know half the tricks. He wont know whats creative and what is just repeating old tricks..
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Bboys have big focus on style and flow therefore they tend to be quite spot on on the decisions they make judging "style". If it was judged by another pro the judging could have been quite unpredictable.
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Bboys have big focus on style and flow therefore they tend to be quite spot on on the decisions they make judging "style". If it was judged by another pro the judging could have been quite unpredictable.
Bboys vote for whichever freestyler looks more bboy. Style isn't even something we should judge. Flow possibly, but style no. The "style" that most freestylers call it is actually execution. The judging criteria should be control/difficulty, creativity, and execution. Bboys have no business near a football freestyle competition.
Vittolen- You kind of missed my point. I don't think either the bboy or a pro footballer should be a judge. The footballer will have more ideas on what is technically harder than the bboy, but only to a point. The bboy will really just judge which one flows better like a dance. That's picking favoritism between different types of freestyle. Not all freestyle is meant to flow like a dance. Anyways, my guess is Cannavaro just voted for whomever he thought was the best. He probably didn't look to see which freestyler was more creative. He doesn't know enough about freestyle to know this, so he most likely did just vote for the one he liked the most.
Switch it to just the 3 freestylers as judges.
1. Mr. Woo- Control/Difficulty
2. Touzani-Creativity
3. Palle-Execution
or just let the 3 of them pick whom they thought was the best. I actually like that even better.
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to put it short: event was mindblowing, judging was a joke. only one guy in the jury who is capeable of juding(palle) touzani and woo dont have any ideq of todays freestyle difficulty. also having categories is the worst thing ever. i heard many stupid decisions were made in the qualifications because of that. oh and i believe the ball is still crap but we had MUCH better freestylers in this years rbss than in 2010.
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slightly off topic but is there anyone out there who has posted the qualification battles on YouTube?
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to put it short: event was mindblowing, judging was a joke. only one guy in the jury who is capeable of juding(palle) touzani and woo dont have any ideq of todays freestyle difficulty. also having categories is the worst thing ever. i heard many stupid decisions were made in the qualifications because of that. oh and i believe the ball is still crap but we had MUCH better freestylers in this years rbss than in 2010.
Completely agree with Max here. I think Roxrite did pretty well as a judge too. And directing this to "redforlife": Roxrite has more knowledge of freestyle than Cannavaro. Saying that you'd prefer being judged by a footballer any time than by a bboy just shows how close-minded you are. As far as I can remember, Roxrite did the correct decision in almost every of the battles, however Cannavaro just seemed to have picked a random guy..
Besides, Roxrite was there at the qualifications to take a closer look at the battles, to get to know the sport better. He talked to us, he was amongst us and informed himself. Guess where Cannavaro was that time. I also think freestyle is closer to breakdance than it is to football. Just my opinion.
Ball was still shit, I hope they change it next year.
I also think they should get rid of the criteria and just vote for whoever they think is the best.
peace
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Your logic, someone disagrees with you, so they must be close minded. Good one.
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Your logic, someone disagrees with you, so they must be close minded. Good one.
nope he brought good arguments, you didnt. you have to understand taht freestyle doesnt have anything todo with football. all my friends play football and literally nobody of them understands the slightest thing about freestyle.
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nope he brought good arguments, you didnt. you have to understand taht freestyle doesnt have anything todo with football. all my friends play football and literally nobody of them understands the slightest thing about freestyle.
Yes, but they need famous people like Cannavaro and Inzaghi for marketing purposes. Maybe in a few years when there's a real fan base around freestyle football, things can be done differently. When the organisers are convinced they will easily sell all tickets and get media attention even without any pro football players involved, I guess/hope they will continue with freestyle oriented people only.
It's just too early to condemn Red Bull for their choise. The reason why RBSS exist in the first place is still mere business..
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Yes, his argument based on using individuals was such a better argument Max. I don't know Cannavaro or Roxrite, and it's more than possible that in this individual case Roxrite would know more, but I strongly doubt either of them know that much. If you think the average break dancer knows more about freestyle than the average footballer, you are living in a fantasy land. Most break dancers don't even know how to juggle, so they obviously wouldn't know anything. Footballers at least know some difficulty in juggling a ball, but that's where their knowledge ends. You still ignore the fact that I said both of them should be removed for either a 3 freestyler panel or replaced by 2 other freestylers. I don't think anyone will disagree there are freestylers that would be a better judge than Roxrite or Cannavaro. Max, you are actually quite close minded. You fail to look at anything from outside the box, and you couldn't care less of outsiders opinions. Without outside interest, any major freestyle event fails. That is a fact.
p.s. work on your spelling.
KevinVO- Thanks for thinking logically. Max even said it. His friends play football, but they have no clue about freestyle. This means his friends are the type of people that might be drawn in by people like Cannavaro and Inzaghi being at the event. Once they are at the event, they might fall in love with freestyle for what it is. The fact we have to face is it will be a very long time before freestyle can support events without interest from other communities. The football community is the first community that can be tempted into coming to the event, and we need to use that to our advantage.
The positives of RBSS this year far outweigh the negatives. We need to look at it this way. This event was done extremely professionally, and it is the type of even that needs to happen to turn more people to the sport. The judging has already improved some, because they are at least getting 3 freestylers whether you like the choice of freestylers or not. The ball sucks, but until Monta quits sponsoring it or Monta designs a better ball that won't change. The overall impact of RBSS this year was extremely positive for the sport.
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Yes, but they need famous people like Cannavaro and Inzaghi for marketing purposes. Maybe in a few years when there's a real fan base around freestyle football, things can be done differently. When the organisers are convinced they will easily sell all tickets and get media attention even without any pro football players involved, I guess/hope they will continue with freestyle oriented people only.
It's just too early to condemn Red Bull for their choise. The reason why RBSS exist in the first place is still mere business..
wow thank you for stating the obvious. everybody fucking knows the reasons why rbss is the way it is.
Jason, i agree with you that of course both of them have to be kicked out of the jury. from you last post i thought you meant that footballers are better judges than breakdancers and i jsut wanted to say that a footballer doesnt know anything about freestyle just like a breakdancer. sorry for misunderstanding your previous post. but from other posts is in this forum i remember that you relate freestyle and football quite often with each other which is wrong imo.
I wouldnt say that i am close minded i actually think alot outside the box but i also draw a line between whats good and whats bad which many didnt really do this year after rbss because they only saw that kickass event ( which i also really enjoyed ) and also Dan going very far but if you analyze this event closely you can see that there have been ALOT of mistakes in the final and even MORE mistakes in each countries qualifier. Because of this, for me the negatives still outweigh the positives, but it was a big improvement from the last two rbss competitions.
Sorry for my spelling but you should be a bit tolerant to people who are using smartphones to post here, its not to easy to write with these without making some mistakes.
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Thanks for a more thoughtful response. I do associate football with freestyle. It is football freestyle, and I think denying the history and relationship between the two is silly. We use a football, no use of hands(this is bent quite often in freestyle, but usually not much hand use), and the basis of freestyle is football juggling. Now, it is obvious that the relationship begins and ends there for the most part. Freestyle has advanced beyond that. Now, it can still be very related to football just like it can be related to break dancing in individuals. It's freestyle, so you can do it how ever you want. I really like football and freestyle both, so it's only natural for me to relate the two in my freestyle. In your freestyle, it may be different.
Judging is always going to be questionable. I disagreed with many decisions from every judge in this competition. I probably agreed with Palle's judging of the best trick in most cases, but this often differed from my overall view of who should win. This is the most useless criteria, because I'm pretty sure Palle even thought the overall winner was different than his vote many times. My best example would be the Andrew Henderson vs Gunther battle. I agree that Gunther did the best trick, so Palle voted correctly. Now, I think Andrew Henderson was overall the best freestyler in the battle. I don't know if Palle agrees with this, but it is very possible that he would have voted differently if he was allowed to judge overall.
I consider the qualifiers to be different events to the world finals. The qualifiers are run by the national Red Bull representatives, so all the qualifiers were done differently. The national qualifiers also didn't receive near the media attention as the world finals, so their impact negative or positive wasn't that big. We didn't have one in the US this year, but the judging selections here were always ridiculous. We had professional hockey players and bboys as judges.
The world finals looked an extremely professional event, and I still think more positive came from it than negative.
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I also think they should get rid of the criteria and just vote for whoever they think is the best.
Ouhh yes. I think all freestyle competitions should het rid of those criterias. I remember that in 2010 Dan wrote somewhere that he actually had to give he's vote to a weaker guy in RBSS 2010, because of the criteria.
pallur
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To be fair no one could judge on control better than Mr Woo. Except maybe Kang Sung Min.
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Ball was still shit, I hope they change it next year.
Is it similar feel to the monta ball back in 2010 RBSS?
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To be fair no one could judge on control better than Mr Woo. Except maybe Kang Sung Min.
100% agree with you. Maybe someone like John Farnworth as well, but Mr. Woo is the control king.
Overall though, I've always thought the judging criteria is ridiculous. It really needs to be done away with. Just let the judges pick whom they like period. End of story.
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How does Mr.Woo judge how you control an aeatw?
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Control would be like counting how many drops?
I do have a question, what would flow be under though? So carrying on combos, trick to trick, minimizing juggles in between. Would that be part of control also? Wouldn't really fit under best trick as it doesn't have to be hardcore combos to be trick to trick, could be transitions.
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If you must have categories, flow would be a part of control. Flowing from one trick to another needs great control. You must be in complete control to flow from trick to trick without obvious stoppages.
Now, this is another reason why I don't think there should be categories. If everyone just judges overall, it will be considered by every judge. The judges should just pick the freestyler they think is the best.
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How does Mr.Woo judge how you control an aeatw?
Well, on control alone it's fairly easy. If he performs the trick without dropping or struggling to control it. Now, judging how difficult aeatw is a completely different story. The fact of the matter is we will never have freestyle judging panels that can do every type of trick, so these things are going to happen. I personally think Mr. Woo is a great choice as a judge, but I can see why some think there are better options.
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Well, on control alone it's fairly easy. If he performs the trick without dropping or struggling to control it. Now, judging how difficult aeatw is a completely different story. The fact of the matter is we will never have freestyle judging panels that can do every type of trick, so these things are going to happen. I personally think Mr. Woo is a great choice as a judge, but I can see why some think there are better options.
Controlling the ball from a knee juggle is vastly different from controlling a move that takes a lot of concentration. The control from knee juggle to foot juggle is pretty much perfect and gets 9/10, the control from skatw takes a few more juggles to get control and is rated 5/10 by Mr.Woo.
I'd rate it the skatw much higher and wouldn't even add knee juggle control when judging the overall. I'm sure most freestylers would say the same.
Therefore I'm a better judge than Mr.Woo.
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well since there is no difficulty criteria i think redbull wanted to have difficulty in the control criteria which makes it impossible for Mr. Woo to judge. Furthermore if control-criteria is only about control you dont need mr woo to judge that. everybody can see who does tricks more ,,controlled'', at least every average freestyler.
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LIS- your comment is obviously an exaggeration. I think Mr. Woo knows that Skala atw is much harder than a knee juggle. He's most likely not retarded. How much Mr. Woo knows about lowers combos, I do not know. It obviously wasn't his style of freestyle.
I actually disagree that the average freestyler can judge control as well as Mr. Woo as I see poor control in many videos that most freestylers overlook. Now, in the case of extremely difficult combos, I understand, but I see it on simple touches that should be clutch.
I still say the biggest problem is the judging criteria. If all of them could just vote on what they like best it would be better even if Touzani, Palle, and Mr. Woo stay as the freestylers on the jury. If this was the case we don't have to worry about Mr. Woo not knowing the about lowers combos.
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The exaggeration was to show the differences more clearly.
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LIS- your comment is obviously an exaggeration. I think Mr. Woo knows that Skala atw is much harder than a knee juggle. He's most likely not retarded. How much Mr. Woo knows about lowers combos, I do not know. It obviously wasn't his style of freestyle.
I actually disagree that the average freestyler can judge control as well as Mr. Woo as I see poor control in many videos that most freestylers overlook. Now, in the case of extremely difficult combos, I understand, but I see it on simple touches that should be clutch.
I still say the biggest problem is the judging criteria. If all of them could just vote on what they like best it would be better even if Touzani, Palle, and Mr. Woo stay as the freestylers on the jury. If this was the case we don't have to worry about Mr. Woo not knowing the about lowers combos.
Lol
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On another note, if "best trick" is not judged based on difficulty then what is it based on?
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I know. Just pointing out that outrageously exaggerated comparisons don't make a good argument. I'm fairly sure Mr. Woo rated many lowers tricks executed well quite highly. Now, could he tell which lowers are genuinely better between two top lowers guys if there aren't any drops, I'm not sure. We don't really know how much he follows modern freestyle. It's really impossible to tell.
All we know is Mr. Woo was definitely a very important person to freestyle. He should be respected.
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Best trick was based on many things, but difficulty most likely was the most important at least in Palle's eyes. The problem is Palle's judging criteria tell him to overlook the entire performance for just the best individual trick. I really don't understand why Red Bull came up with this. Terrible judging criteria.
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I know. Just pointing out that outrageously exaggerated comparisons don't make a good argument. I'm fairly sure Mr. Woo rated many lowers tricks executed well quite highly. Now, could he tell which lowers are genuinely better between two top lowers guys if there aren't any drops, I'm not sure. We don't really know how much he follows modern freestyle. It's really impossible to tell.
All we know is Mr. Woo was definitely a very important person to freestyle. He should be respected.
yes but that doesnt make him a good judge imo. i dont know if you are aware of the complexity of lowers or understand it fully since you dont practise them yourself but even top-lower guys fail to understand all of it. it is very unlikely that mr. woo can judge the difficulty of lower combos or even upper combos nowadays by watching it only one time.
dont get me wrong it is very nice to see him still involved in freestyle and he is a legend no doubt but as a judge he is no good choice. then again, i didnt analyse his votes during rbss which wouldnt make much sense because of the criterias, which we both agree are total bulshit.
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I know. Just pointing out that outrageously exaggerated comparisons don't make a good argument. I'm fairly sure Mr. Woo rated many lowers tricks executed well quite highly. Now, could he tell which lowers are genuinely better between two top lowers guys if there aren't any drops, I'm not sure. We don't really know how much he follows modern freestyle. It's really impossible to tell.
All we know is Mr. Woo was definitely a very important person to freestyle. He should be respected.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
Mr.Woo should not be a judge if I can judge just as well or even better than he can. There's no point in judging how well someone controls different juggling techniques if no one is bloody using them, is there? This means he isn't qualified to judge competitions post 1960.
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
Mr.Woo should not be a judge if I can judge just as well or even better than he can. There's no point in judging how well someone controls different juggling techniques if no one is bloody using them, is there? This means he isn't qualified to judge competitions post 1960.
Yeah he can still tell the difference between a controlled combo and one that is all over the place.
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Lets put it this way. I know you are really worried about Mr. Woo's knowledge of lowers combos and his understanding of their difficulty. Don't you think it's possible that other freestylers that could possibly judge wouldn't understand the difficulty and intricacy of other areas on freestyle? I think freestyle is too broad of an art right now for any individual to genuinely understand everything.
You still have to control the ball LIS. There are still plenty of tricks that are about touch and control. I honestly think Mr. Woo would understand which freestylers have the best touch and control more than other freestyler judges. I think this, because I see freestylers overlook touch all the time. They don't appreciate it, so how could they judge it?
The fact is we aren't going to find any perfect judge. No one genuinely knows enough about every aspect in freestyle. If we allowed the 3 freestylers to judge all around, not to the stupid criteria, it would be much better. Palle could represent lowers, Mr. Woo represent touch and control, and Touzani represent ground moves. I think this is fair. It's never going to be perfect.
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also wanted to point out how I noticed a lot of people complaining about how there were too many back flips in the competition. In my opinion, back flips are just showing more variation which is one of the five criteria; people were complaining as though the back flips won over all five judges and hardcore lowers were being overlooked. A good amount of competitors with acrobatic skills that went far in the competition had other elements that matched their opponents within the criteria and back flips, handstands just showed more variation.
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I have nothing against back flips. I am just happy that many of the guys doing acrobatics actually did a few different variations, not just ball between knees and back flip. From what I could tell, everyone in the top 16 had a fairly high level without doing any back flips. The acrobatic tricks just made their performances that much more appealing. Doing tricks that the crowd will enjoy is part of freestyle.
I think the only 2 judges that may have been won over by back flips were Roxrite and Cannavaro. Now, the others may have rated the more interesting or difficult variations, but they were looking for more than just flashy looking tricks.
In the end it's freestyle for a reason. We shouldn't be upset that acrobatics are becoming popular. I think that is just another evolution of the sport. The guys not doing acrobatic tricks will just have to find another way to impress.