Style vs Hardcore

[jabarinho]

@ Miran: I see the names Akim and Ethan being mentioned. I thought they were saying they prefer to see a stylish, flowing vid from Abbas or Michryc rather than limits being pushed by hardcore guys.

You cannot compare Ethan and Akim to the guy in your link who is simply skipping basics to do hardcore. I'm saying i prefer to watch a hardcore vid with decent style rather than a flowing vid with perfect style. Because to me hardcore is more exciting.

An Abbas or Michryc vid would be more entertaining for most people though.

[redsforlife]

I agree with Miran 90%. The only thing I disagree with is the use of the word "style". You are correct that it can have more than one meaning, but I'm the native English speaker man. Trust me, the most common usage of style among freestylers is you have great style, or you need to work on your style. They are not saying you need to come up with something that separates you from others or you are very unique. They are saying you have good or bad execution. Like I said though, it almost has become an acceptable term within the freestyle community.

Jaba: Akim, Ethan, etc. were used as examples, because they are some of the most well known hardcore freestylers. A quick look at the video section will show that the majority of hardcore videos are like the one  Miran posted. I still think it isn't a choice of entertainment vs pushing the limits. Michryc, Luki, Szymo, Abbas, and Gautier push the limits as well, but they do it in less mainstream type tricks. Freestyle is an art. This means the whole point of freestyle is to make things beautiful. Now, there are more complex forms of every art, but even the most simple arts can be beautiful.

[Adi]

I can guarantee that casual freestyle fans or anyone that randomly comes across a freestyle video will be more impressed by a well executed video rather than a hardcore video that isn't done properly.

I know most freestylers don't care about those viewers who don't freestyle much, but you really should.  This is how freestyle will grow.  Freestyle grew the most when new and unique stuff was brought to the table, as was done with the Nike ads back in the day and the early movement of freestyle when new stuff was invented frequently.

As Jason said, freestyle should continue to be beautiful and attractive.  If you want to look like you're spazzing out when you're freestyling, then just pick up a hacky sack and do that.  Now those clowns look like nerds and tools.  Freestyle is heading more and more into that direction.  Stop it before it's too late.

Also, why are more of you not posting on this topic?  Are the replies too long and well thought out to reply?  Seriously, some of you that post "hahaha, cool vid" or just post a smiley in most topics need to branch out and post some valuable stuff.  Don't be scared off by the long posts... instead, read them and comment.

[Onas]

Now, my memory from Prague is that more people were just interested into whatever hard combo someone like Skora, FX, Rocco, etc. could do.

I dont really get why do you complain about people not mastering basics first when these three obviously have one of the best basics out there, FX & Rocco have probably the best style ever and Skoras style also looks much more controlled and cleaner and with much more flow than it used to be. I also really doubt Szymo could compete with them when it comes to lowers.
The truth is that majority of people prefer doing lowers which make freestyle football a sport to doing some clown shit. I think people get much more impressed with some 3 rev tricks, thinking that it mustve taken really long time and sweat to nail them and that those freestylers have to be in a pretty good shape, while watching some Gautavity vids, they may think its cool as well, but rather more like circus stuff. I also like creative freestyle a la MichRyc, but some of the creativity, like pulling his own T-shirt over his head, looks just retarded to me. My favourite creative freestylers would be Clem, Leiki, Abbas, Nadir and some Japanese freestylers.
But I agree with you, that nowadays, style is pretty much pushed aside. Although I never liked when guys like MP didnt get the respect they deserved just because they looked a bit awkward while pulling out some combos, the truth is non-freestylers find freestyle football to be much cooler when all the combos are executed with great style. My friend of mine (also a freestyler) told me how he had shown his gf a video of MP doing 5 ALATWs and she just burst of laughing.

[Onas]

Also, everybody wants to become a part of FS history, so you cant really blame some of those guys they want to be the first in the world/country/state/town/area/district/street to do a certain trick/combo when the main part of freestyle are lowers.

[Onas]

Aaaand hardcore lowers are the main reason why we are so different to freestylers like Billy and Jeremy. They would be possibly able to learn some rollers, transitions, but I really doubt they will ever be able to do some  rev trick.

Sorry for making 3 posts in a row, Im just full of cool ideas, lol

[Adi]

I dont really get why do you complain about people not mastering basics first when these three obviously have one of the best basics out there, FX & Rocco have probably the best style ever and Skoras style also looks much more controlled and cleaner and with much more flow than it used to be.

These are the elite freestylers I specifically excluded from my comments.  The elite can pull of hardcore moves while also making them look sexy.  This is because they are consistent, accurate, and just damn good.

We are talking about the other 95% of the freestyle community.  The freestylers who attempt the same shit as Skora and FX but simply don't have the ability to do it yet.

The argument is they should master their core tricks before going on to the next hardcore combo.  If you just trying to land the next hardest combo, you're never gonna do it clean or look good doing it.  Style is not necessarily the ability to come up with a new trick, but also your execution of existing moves.  If you can land combos with good execution that also gives you style points.

[redsforlife]

Your point completely missed my point entirely. I am a big fan of FX, Rocco, and Skora. They are great at what they do, and they have great execution of their lowers. You used the word style wrong. I also disagree that Szymo cannot compete with them on lowers. The guy is a PATW master. He can do PATW in, out, PMATW, and PTATW. I think he is pretty close to the same level. My point was there is a bias in what is enjoyed by the average freestyler. They would much rather see these hardcore lowers than anything else. They also ignore the fact that sits and uppers can push the limits as well.

I also really don't like this clown shit you keep talking about. You do realize the group that will decide whether freestylers are clowns or not is the non-freestylers in the world. What makes freestyle cool and different from circus arts to the outside world is the "football" aspect. If it's not football freestyle, it's circus juggling. If anything, the whole obsession with pushing the limits in lowers alone is more clown shit to me than being creative. I don't think any style of freestyle should be criticized and called clown shit.

Non-freestylers will be entertained by anything with good execution and a good variety of tricks. Any lowers only video might be boring to them, because they do not understand the difference between the tricks. It's actually a very few non-freestylers that notice the difficulty of a 3 revolution trick. This comes up all the time. Why do easy tricks get more response than hard tricks? It's because the average non-freestyle responds to what looks cool than what is hard. If someone like Skora does an AEATW combo in front of an entire non-freestyle crowd, I personally think I could fool them into thinking I'm better by just doing some simple sole juggling tricks. I know what many of you are going to say. Sole juggling is way easier. Well, you have to think like a non-freestyler. Is throwing your legs around a ball look easier or more impressive, or is juggling almost upside down with the bottom of your feet more impressive? Most will say soles, because they've never seen anything like that.

I have nothing against people trying to push the limits to become the 1st to land particular trick and combos. That's not really the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to not only put emphasis on landing these hardcore tricks. You can do both hardcore and more creative.

[vish22]

"Hardcore" mentality and balance is only derived from a through execution of basics,through patience and enduring trainings.That is the essence of improvement right?To get to a higher level and combining various techniques only after practice in its corresponding basics.Every hardcore trick can be mapped to a set of "pre movements" of that corresponding hardcore trick.Hence,rigorous trainings of these "pre-movements"(which can be generalised in "basics") will not only improve muscle memory,but also to an extent,the speed and balance.And once such a level is attained for any individual-getting a,lets say 3-rev move(corresponding to those pre-movements),would be much much easier than lets say another individual whose had no experience of such pre-movements, but yet is forcing himself upon that trick-THIS is what imo comes across as "bad style".
Also,these "basics" which i mentioned need not be only atws,or htws,etc.It may be anything as long as it is(few)level(s) lower than,lets say a target 3 rev. trick which someone may be aiming for.
So the entire notion of "hardcore" is nothing but an attempt at combining pre-movements to get a result trick.The efficiency or"ease" of this comes across as style.

I'm just being more specific to what Adi had hinted earlier.
So yes,
a)it is possible for someone to inconsistently reach certain level of hardcoreness without rigorous basics leading to it-yielding "hard" or bad style most of the times.
b)But what that someone would have failed to learn in the entire process is that-The same level of the certain hardcoreness which he had achieved(that too inconsistently with bad stlye),could have been easily achieved with systematic progress in at a lower level-yielding a much more relaxed style and increasing the consistency as well


PS:All this in connection to lowers ofc  .And sorry if this was a bit repetetive,just trying to make it clear.

[jabarinho]

These are the elite freestylers I specifically excluded from my comments.  The elite can pull of hardcore moves while also making them look sexy.  This is because they are consistent, accurate, and just damn good.

But i saw you say in a previous post that you rather watch a Michryc vid over an Ethan vid because Michryc is more stylish. And you also said you are tired of hardcore fs and would rather see something creative rather than one extra revolution. This is a totally different issue compared to fsers who skip basics.

Anyway, as i said before most freestylers want to do something impressive, not "to look sexy" or "to help grow freestyle". So, to them, each trick does not have to be perfect style.

[vish22]

Anyway, as i said before most freestylers want to do something impressive, not "to look sexy" or "to help grow freestyle". So, to them, each trick does not have to be perfect style.

So,jabarinho,what you are indicating indirectly is that if someone just wants to do skmatw-so he tries skmatw 100 times or even more,until he gets it.Thats the approach you would follow,right?And even after he gets it,he would keep trying it again and again till he has "perfected" it?

[redsforlife]

Jaba, the whole point of the thread is Hardcore vs Style(style is used wrong in this instance, should mean more creative or unique freestyle)

Both of these points are part of the discussion. That was part of his point. He said that many freestylers force hardcore tricks to compete, but it would  look better if they mastered more basic tricks to make their execution better.

The other point is the more creative freestylers that do other things than just try to beat or match hardcore combos are more entertaining to watch to him. I don't see why some freestylers find this shocking. I think both Adi and I are amazed when someone like Ethan does a crazy combo we haven't seen before, but the total satisfaction may not be as great if it was from someone like Michrych, Luki, or someone else. We know what Ethan's progression most likely will be, 1 more revolution. With the more creative type  freestyler, we have no clue what it will be, so the satisfaction is great with the bigger surprise.

Also, I'd like to point out. I'm not trying to say creative tricks are harder than hardcore tricks or visa-versa. I think the limits can be pushed in all aspects of freestyle. For me, I think this is what the ultimate goal should be. To be the best all-around.