Beyond Football - Freestyle Football Forum
Freestyle Soccer Forum => Freestyle Chat => Topic started by: L_I_S on Jul 17, 2013, 01:34: AM
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In your opinion, what is the worst thing to happen to the freestyle community?
I say Macca and the way he divided the community, weakening it in the process.
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Definitely not Macca. I mean, you don't have to like any person really, but I don't see him making L2F or producing his youtube channel as something harmful.
I think the worst thing that happened to the freestyle community is the obsession over competitions and which styles are better than other styles. I like competitions, but freestyle used to be more light hearted and fun. Now, it's about who is the best. Also, this has lead many people to believe you must master a particular style to be considered good. Creativity is dying.
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Definitely not Macca. I mean, you don't have to like any person really, but I don't see him making L2F or producing his youtube channel as something harmful.
I'm neutral towards him as a person. Do you disagree that making an alternate forum didn't weaken the community? All freestylers used to talk together, now it's only the one's that live near by that talk because they've already established a good friendship.
I've only watched a few of his videos so I don't know much about them, but as far as I can tell they bring the people who just want to learn freestyle to show a few tricks to their friends and call themselves a freestyler when really they only hold the bare minimum and are unworthy of the title.
I'm not sure how many people will understand this comparison but the 'freestylers' his video brings are the equivalent to the 'girl gamer' or 'casual gamer' of the gaming community. If you don't understand that, think of the Youtube generic top comments like 'I'm in the weird part of YT again!', 'quote from video' or '0:00 one more time!'. These are the people that are flocking into our community. The noobs that quit after 6 months.
His videos cater to non-freestylers, not beginner freestylers. This is a big difference and the reason why his videos weaken the community.
Tutorials from Leha, were very in depth and cater to freestylers from beginner to advanced. A freestyler must have lots of will, time and dedication and a lengthy in depth tutorial will quickly show who is serious and loves freestyle and what it's about and who just wants to do it to show off, get a few quick and easy oohs and aahs with an atw from their friends.
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Online competitions that are completely dissapearing. The improvement the last 1-2 years of beginners/intermediates is far from what it was back in the days with those comps.
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Macca created a new forum because he thought this one wasn't up to par.
The issue is his forum is pretty much a clone of BF. He's added nothing new to be honest.
The freestyle community is small and should be kept in tact as much as possible. I'm still a strong believer in uniting all the communities, even the foreign sites into sub categories. I know it won't happen but having a central location for freestyle would be best. Facebook is that now, but it's not made to open and detailed freestyle conversation.
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I'm neutral towards him as a person. Do you disagree that making an alternate forum didn't weaken the community? All freestylers used to talk together, now it's only the one's that live near by that talk because they've already established a good friendship.
I've only watched a few of his videos so I don't know much about them, but as far as I can tell they bring the people who just want to learn freestyle to show a few tricks to their friends and call themselves a freestyler when really they only hold the bare minimum and are unworthy of the title.
I'm not sure how many people will understand this comparison but the 'freestylers' his video brings are the equivalent to the 'girl gamer' or 'casual gamer' of the gaming community. If you don't understand that, think of the Youtube generic top comments like 'I'm in the weird part of YT again!', 'quote from video' or '0:00 one more time!'. These are the people that are flocking into our community. The noobs that quit after 6 months.
His videos cater to non-freestylers, not beginner freestylers. This is a big difference and the reason why his videos weaken the community.
Tutorials from Leha, were very in depth and cater to freestylers from beginner to advanced. A freestyler must have lots of will, time and dedication and a lengthy in depth tutorial will quickly show who is serious and loves freestyle and what it's about and who just wants to do it to show off, get a few quick and easy oohs and aahs with an atw from their friends.
Last time I heard, L2F Forum wasn't doing so hot either. Really, I doubt there would be that much more activity on here if it was never invented. It didn't help, but it also isn't what killed it. Facebook kind of took over as the main place to talk about freestyle online.
I actually see absolutely nothing wrong with his tutorials attracting casuals. How else are you gonna turn casuals into hardcores? You have to start somewhere. I was definitely a casual when my entire freestyle fan ways were watching NIKE Joga Bonito ads. I didn't even know what freestyle was back then. Now, I am definitely hugely involved in the community. I personally am and always will be of the opinion we shouldn't look down on noobs. Yes, they can be annoying, but if we look down on them, we might push them away from the community. If we embrace them, they might become the next generation of hardcores.
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Online competitions that are completely dissapearing. The improvement the last 1-2 years of beginners/intermediates is far from what it was back in the days with those comps.
I think the influx of live competitions and of course the forum being less busy are the main culprits here. Online competitions for fun were great. They definitely inspired people to go out and practice. With all the huge live competitions, less people are willing to have interest in a video competition. Hell, I remember in the prime days of BF, Skora and other top freestylers entered random online competitions.
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I still think there is room for a dedicated freestyle site for comps. I wanted to make BF one of those sites. You don't need the top freestylers participating (would be nice)... it would be more for the beginners and mid-level freestylers.
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I still think there is room for a dedicated freestyle site for comps. I wanted to make BF one of those sites. You don't need the top freestylers participating (would be nice)... it would be more for the beginners and mid-level freestylers.
Of course you don't need the top freestylers competing. It's just they sometimes draw people in. What we need is something that will bring traffic back to the site. Last year's BF Competition did that a little bit.
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I think the influx of live competitions and of course the forum being less busy are the main culprits here. Online competitions for fun were great. They definitely inspired people to go out and practice. With all the huge live competitions, less people are willing to have interest in a video competition. Hell, I remember in the prime days of BF, Skora and other top freestylers entered random online competitions.
Agreed, it's sad though, since online competitions were the main reason people from the time online comps were big, improved so fast. Imo you can see a big difference between the improvement of guys in for example 2008 and nowadays. Freestylers (especially beginners) became very lazy, because they don't have any goal to strive for, live comps are too 'big' anyways for them to aim at. This is also a reason why most people quit after 1-2 years of freestyle nowadays
I think 'year-competitions' with for example 24 guys (who are motivated to do this and will actually make the videos) would be the best way to improve in freestyle, if you have two battles a month with two different guys. At the end of the year a ranking could be made.
Similar to the RLL, but with allround (to attract more people) and going for a year instead of a few months. I doubt this could work out though since the laziness is high :grin:
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We can try to start a new BF comp. We can also do a video comp each month where we start a poll to see who made the best video.
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Is it possible that the community outgrew forums? Maybe it got too big that it didn't need to rely on a forum, instead it went mainstream (social media, live events, and tons of other outlets).
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Is it possible that the community outgrew forums? Maybe it got too big that it didn't need to rely on a forum, instead it went mainstream (social media, live events, and tons of other outlets).
Facebook groups is what did it. Most kids these days just find it easier to do everything on Facebook. However, I actually think the community itself is still fairly small. If it starts to get really big, a forum would actually probably do better.
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It's not about the forum, it's about making a split in the community.
As for casuals..like I said, there's a difference between them and noobs. Noobs evolve, casuals only evolve enough to make their friends think 'cool!!!', zero intrinsic satisfaction/motivation.
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I think you have to consider that the circumstances substantially changed from 5 years ago to now:
- Back then, there were much less freestylers, and with no or just a few others in the area, eager to talk about freestyle and a forum is perfect to unite them.
But today, most freestylers made some friends and talk to them, with no need to include others in their discussions, why would they? What could a noob contribute?.
- Also the level was much worse, what allowed other people to keep up, and becoming the best freestyler in your country was a realistic goal.
But today, you Elias say, noobs just want to learn tricks to impress their friends with no dedication to freestyle. But what should their goal be? Becoming the best in the country and win RBSS in their country is impossible for most countries, and with being one out of very many, it is hard to get recognition of other freestylers. Before my old youtube channel was deleted in 2009, my freestyle videos would easily reach 10'000 views after a few months, one even had 400'000 views. Today, nobody cares really.
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that more and more people doing stuff like backflipcatch, handstandneckstall etc. for me these tricks are only acrobatic moves, not freestyle tricks ^^
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But today, you Elias say, noobs just want to learn tricks to impress their friends with no dedication to freestyle. But what should their goal be? Becoming the best in the country and win RBSS in their country is impossible for most countries, and with being one out of very many, it is hard to get recognition of other freestylers. Before my old youtube channel was deleted in 2009, my freestyle videos would easily reach 10'000 views after a few months, one even had 400'000 views. Today, nobody cares really.
I think self motivation and intrinsic satisfaction should be the major roles that keep you freestyling, not revenue or to impress their friends as their main goal.
My goal when I first started was to learn as many tricks as I could. These days I see noobs wanting to learn LP moves and show tricks for the sake of showing off, not because they like them.
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that more and more people doing stuff like backflipcatch, handstandneckstall etc. for me these tricks are only acrobatic moves, not freestyle tricks ^^
Not trying to sound mean, but this is stupid. Those are fine freestyle moves. Now, if you literally are only capable of acrobatic moves, you are not a very good freestyler. However, they can definitely spice up anyone's routine. There is nothing wrong with them.
I actually think some of the bugs BF had a while back really contributed to this forum losing activity. I remember for a long time I even thought it was permanently down. That was the reason I quit posting for probably the longest time since I became a member. Forums can still work. It's just we are almost back at the beginning despite the forum being several years old and used to have many active members.
Personally, I think being more open minded towards "noobs" would be a good thing. We were all "noobs" once.
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I think you're right, Jason. The downtime, hacking, etc really caused issues. Sometimes if you get away from a forum for a week it can be enough to quit for good.
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I really see no reason why would Mac be the worst thing to happen. I'm not trying to kiss his ass or anything, but he gives his best to make the forum and the l2f site working.
About casuals and ect. If they only learn 2 or 3 tricks just to impress their friends or some bitches, why the fuck is that a problem. He won't post on a forum, he won't be considered a freestyler and isn't a part of the community. I teached my friend to do tatw and amatw, is he a part of the community?
About competitions, I'm sad to agree with Kenneth here, many guys enter competitions then post in the comp topics saying "ah sorry man, I didn't train in a week", "I forgot the deadline was yesterday", "I had sex with Beyonce and Paris Hilton so I couldn't edit and upload the video" ect.
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I really see no reason why would Mac be the worst thing to happen. I'm not trying to kiss his ass or anything, but he gives his best to make the forum and the l2f site working.
About casuals and ect. If they only learn 2 or 3 tricks just to impress their friends or some bitches, why the fuck is that a problem. He won't post on a forum, he won't be considered a freestyler and isn't a part of the community. I teached my friend to do tatw and amatw, is he a part of the community?
About competitions, I'm sad to agree with Kenneth here, many guys enter competitions then post in the comp topics saying "ah sorry man, I didn't train in a week", "I forgot the deadline was yesterday", "I had sex with Beyonce and Paris Hilton so I couldn't edit and upload the video" ect.
First part, I mentioned already, it's about the division weakening the community, not the forum it self.
Second part, they make the community shit, the quality of posts diminish(your friend might not post, but others will). Catering to them will be part of the community. Catering to casuals means that actual beginners will not be looked after(either being mistaken for casuals, or that the tutorials will be too basic which is perfect for casuals).
Third part, 100% agree. When I used to go to the competition section(I think there wasn't even a section at one point) I always saw that there were 8 competitors and 3 people uploaded videos, 2 uploaded there's late and the rest didn't even bother and came up with excuses. I think I joined 3 competitions that were never completed and then I gave up.
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Well, people who want to give to freestyle just because they love it, will not be disturbed by having 2 forums. It's just too bad that top freestylers don't post anymore, here or on l2f forum. I read some epic posts written by top freestylers. I'd so love them back here, even tho I came here when they were gone.
Hm, didn't think about that. You really made me think and I still can't respond to that, it's a issue which can't be solved easy, it's a hard task because you can't tell somebody they're not allowed to post on a forum. Mentality is the game in that one.
I really hate that. Not saying I didn't do that, I didn't upload a vid for the next stage of beginner lowers comp (I think it's top 16) but I made it clear straight away, the reason wasn't me being a lazy fuck to upload or anything, and I think the place was filled. I can't really see the point of starting something you can't finish. I seriously hope people don't have that kind of policy in life as well. Even if there were no spectacular awesome super dooper prizes, and you can't expect anything, we have 2 forums, not 2 oil companies, entering the competition is meaning more and more training, improving. Sadly, not so many people understand that.
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It's really disappointing to see my name brought up in the 'worst thing to happen to freestyle' thread, it very much feels like a direct attack towards me, from you, Lis.
I don't even know how to begin to reply to this. I know for a fact I have helped a lot of people and although many people disagree that I started a new forum I had good reasons for it, the main one being that is forum wasn't doing a good enough job due to server issues and other things (as Adi and Jason pointed out).
My goal in freestyle is to help it grow, whether it be by online tutorials (which by the way are obviously catered to inspire complete newbies to freestyle, not sure why I am being criticised for that.) by blogging, writing articles, keeping my website updated and other videos.
I started videos of the month which has had a great response and I think as forums are on their way out it's a effective and accessible way to see what's going on in freestyle (Football Freestyle - June 2013 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEvvV5z2aAE#ws))
Also I plan on making more videos like this in Prague, showcasing the sport to new people but also making it enjoyable for freestylers to watch ( World Football Freestyle Championships 2013 - London (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBb9ixgRGog#ws) )
I am just trying to bridge the gap between 'us and them', times are changing and I don't see why you wouldn't want new people to discover freestyle. Even if they get bored of it after 2 weeks.
Like I say, it really saddens me that I (or Learn2Freestyle, not sure which you are referring to) has been brought up instantly. It feels like a personal attack towards me and doesn't feel nice at all.
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It's really disappointing to see my name brought up in the 'worst thing to happen to freestyle' thread, it very much feels like a direct attack towards me, from you, Lis.
I think blaming you or your forum is pretty damn silly. Of course that's not the problem. Now, do I think the forum itself has improved the freestyle community that much, not really. However, L2F on the whole probably has improved the community as it has great exposure on Youtube. Do I think they are the best videos out there, no, but that's irrelevant. They do their purpose.
Hey Mac, it's just a minority that are going full retard on a subject that think this. It's just like how a minority of Americans for some reason hate me. It's even more lame when you don't actually communicate with them to find out they talk shit about you.
I do personally think 1 forum is more than enough, and BF is the one that has the greater history. I think it'd be easier to revive than to grow L2F forum.
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I don't know how else to explain my self. But because I like you, I will repeat what I said and answer you as well.
I'll put in it order of your post.
1. It's not meant to be an attack on you, only your values on how you see freestyle and where/how it should grow and all that. Just because I like some things about you doesn't mean I can't talk about my values and how they're completely opposite to yours and why I think my way is the best way.
2. The problem was the division. What's better, 1 forum with 50 posts a day or two with 25 posts a day? Anyone who comes to a forum and sees the latter will feel that there's no one around and then they drop off causing the number to drop.
I don't mind freestyle growing, I just don't want to see freestyle as a whole cater to non-freestyles first just because they're the lowest common denominator. I also don't want freestylers to be associated with casuals, which is what your videos are actually catered too, not people who actually want to learn, it's just the flava of the month to them. If I recall correctly you listen to rap music, right? What if you said I like rap music and the first thing to jump into my head was 'Oh, he's into guys like lil Wayne'. He caters to the lowest common denominator too and for that most people may think lil Wayne when you think rap. Same with freestyle and how skill will be seen. I don't think I worded that last part correctly but I think my message still comes across.
I am just trying to bridge the gap between 'us and them', times are changing and I don't see why you wouldn't want new people to discover freestyle. Even if they get bored of it after 2 weeks.
3. I had to quote this part as this is my biggest problem. The gap between us and them should always be there. To be associated with the people who don't have any form of will power and dedicated to what they love yet they get to call themselves freestylers? I don't understand how any freestyler could be happy with this. Times only changing because it's being fueled to change.
As I mentioned in the beginning of this post, it's not meant to be personal attack. Surely you've had people disagree with your opinion/values etc before? This is just an extreme case.
I just finished watching the second video that you claim is for both freestylers and non freestylers. Bullshit. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, but that's definitely not catering to freestylers just because you showed the difficult or best parts of a battle. Eurobac battles, Skora's poorly edited videos, 20 second videos involving 1 move with super slow mo, Come my lady, come come, my lady..those are videos for freestylers by freestylers without even giving a shit about non-freestylers. To say this is a hybrid complete crap. Short cut offs are for those that don't have the attention span to watch a 20 second clip without being distracted or bored, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any 20+ second clips, because that would make people bored. A FREESTYLE clip for 30 seconds is too boring for people.
You didn't even consider putting the final video in, right? That would've made the casuals bored and freestylers know where to find the vids if they wanted.
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Thank you, Jason!
LIS, it's a highlight video so no the full final battle wasn't in it. If you check my channel you'll see all the routines and battles from the event uploaded in their entirety. I spent the entire weekend filming, writing and interviewing to show freestyle in the best possible light. If you visit my website http://www.learn2freestyle.com (http://www.learn2freestyle.com) you will see written articles and news as well.
Honestly I don't know what else I could do to not be the worst thing that happened in freestyle. It seems to be a case of do nothing and you won't be criticised.
I'm going to remove my account here because it's pretty upsetting to be treated and talked about as someone who is trying to ruin freestyle rather than someone who is trying to grow it and give people the recognition they deserve. Sorry if you feel that way but there is nothing I can do.
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Forgot to add I wish everyone the best with their freestyle and hopefully see you in Prague next week. Peace!
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At least post a rebuttal to why you think the exact opposite of me. I took the time and wrote it out so it would be easy to reply to as well.
Forgot to add I wish everyone the best with their freestyle and hopefully see you in Prague next week. Peace!
Well that wasn't very courteous. I replied right now because I saw that you were on..it 3am over here but I thought it would be rude not to reply to your post.
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LIS- You need to be have more acceptance of noobs. :grin:
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LIS- You need to be have more acceptance of casuals. :grin:
FTFY..and no! The wreck everything that's good and dilute it.
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FTFY..and no! The wreck everything that's good and dilute it.
I disagree. There is more than enough retardation among non-noob freestylers to go around. Some noob stupidity won't hurt much, and it's more understandable.
Anyways, everyone starts out a noob. I really don't see the problem. Every big forum has noobs on the site. Most people bitch about them, but they will eventually start contributing more to the forum.
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Just checked the L2F forum and it's completely dead as well.
Shame we don't have an active freestyle forum anymore. I think it's mainly due to top freestylers leaving the forum scene. I'm still surprised the new freestylers aren't coming on board.
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man i miss forum action ! I guess alot of people check vids on facebook now , but still forums are better for discussions.
Btw i love the new homepage for vids !
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Thank you! It's updated frequently. Hopefully, people bookmark it and frequently visit. :13:
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this sort of posts!! haha JK
Just doing some posts here..
IMO the worst thing is this "real freestyle" SHIT!
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this sort of posts!! haha JK
Just doing some posts here..
IMO the worst thing is this "real freestyle" SHIT!
I'm happy being fake freestyle with you bro. :great:
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My goal in freestyle is to help it grow, whether it be by online tutorials (which by the way are obviously catered to inspire complete newbies to freestyle, not sure why I am being criticised for that.) by blogging, writing articles, keeping my website updated and other videos.
Really? Too bad I have account banned on l2f with all the private messages, where you wrote to me, that you get out of studying, decided not to go to the university, and that site (l2f) is the goal of whole your life, incl. ads, YT-account pumping and adding news. Let's bo honest, it was all about commercial, which finally didn't happen.
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Really? Too bad I have account banned on l2f with all the private messages, where you wrote to me, that you get out of studying, decided not to go to the university, and that site (l2f) is the goal of whole your life, incl. ads, YT-account pumping and adding news. Let's bo honest, it was all about commercial, which finally didn't happen.
Not a good decision to be honest. Skipping university to rely on a freestyle website to make you money isn't smart. I could've told him that. I did see him put a lot of work into news posts on his site, but the reality is even with a lot of traffic, you won't make much money with Google ads or anything else for that matter.
The problem is the category. Freestyle appeals to young males which means very little money from Google. If you get 1000s of visitors each day, you will still only make $10 or less from Google in this niche. 1000 visitors on an insurance site on the other hand will make you hundreds or thousands a day.
We used to get tons of traffic here and I removed the ads because it was just annoying and not worth the few bucks from Google.
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i dont think that there has been alot of horrible things happening to the community ...its very alive and kicking !!
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i dont think that there has been alot of horrible things happening to the community ...its very alive and kicking !!
I think this conversation is more about the forum community, not overall freestyle scene. :)
Freestyle is growing, just outside of forums.
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I think it is several different reasons.
1. Alot of the "big name freestylers" aren't posting on forums anymore
2. there are only a couple posts a day, when people see this, they think that the forum is basically dead and almost don't want to post here due to the fact that it seems like no one is ever on here.
3. Facebook did take over. there are alot of specific freestyle football groups on facebook, people tend to go on there more and so it is more convenient.
4. online competitions are rare. i would compete in one, however, there aren't any to compete in. also the ones that do come up are rarely finished.
etc.