Beyond Football - Freestyle Football Forum
Soccer => Soccer Forum => Topic started by: Adi on Apr 10, 2008, 09:02: AM
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What do you all think?
Does England have the best top teams in the world?
I have to say... yes! Just look at the semi-finals in which 3 out of 4 teams are from England. Hell, if there wasn't a quarter-final between two English teams (Arsenal vs. Liverpool), we may just have had an all-English semi final.
Just look at it this way: Madrid is #1 in Spain, and they didn't even make the quarters. Inter is #1 in Italy, and they didn't even make the quarters. Barcelona is the only team that's still in and they had the easiest possible draw.
England's 1-4 nowadays beats any of the others country's 1-4... no doubt about it.
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yeah they are the best :cheers:
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Obviously, how long have I been saying this.. but everyone tries to fight me about it.
There will be an English team in the finals yet again, and maybe an all English final.
:biggrin:
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I've been saying it for a long time too but some of our "Italian and Spanish" friends seem to think otherwise.
I want to see what they have to say.
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They won't respond.. they'll wait til Barca wins against someone and then say something.
Fucking members on here sometimes are bullshit.. like saying
"United suck, and all English teams suck."
"The CL is boring because no good teams are in it."
"Ronaldo sucks." <-- How stupid do you feel (whoever says that). If you had sense, you'd know Ronaldo is currently the best in the world. And how stupid does Moby feel after he lost that bet to me by miles.
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Last season, it was close but now? Yes, and by a country mile.
Liverpool, a team who conceded thier challenge for the PL title a long time ago, knocked out, a Seria A defending champs who look set to win it again this season, Inter.
Arsenal outpaced Milan so much it was sad to watch at times really, and not to mention ManU wins over Roma which is starting to be like a little tradition for the red devils each season. :biggrin:
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Haha, and we didn't even use majority of our first team, and look how close Roma are to win the Serie A.. only like a point off right?
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i've always said that we have the best teams competing in the CL aswell as the best league and now it proves it :rockit:
All english final hopefully :banana: :banana:
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this issue has a simple answer. what i beileve is that the italian and spanish league play much better football. i am talking about technically. yes maybe now the english teams are winning becuase the only thing they know is to run and shoot.
i mean even the english national soccer federation paid something like 20 million to build non other then technical schools. to teach technical football. as i said previouly they wasted millions to find the answer to englands football problem and this former brazilian player sumed it up in 2 minutes. he said and i quote "England need to play more technical football. all they do right now is run and shoot the ball from 35 metres out and hope for the best."
thats my point of view
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i agree with Moby and you could say the English teams are beat that of other country's but my argument is that in England only the top 4 are good in the other league it flows right though to the relegation struggler's for example teams like Pompey,Tottenham and Everton would lose to teams like Fiorentina, Udinese and Sampdoria and would also lose to Atlético Madrid ,Sevilla FC and Espanyol
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i think they have great teams but they have just more of those quality clubs. spain has for example only real and barca but they are also of that level.
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Spain got Sevilla, Villarreal, Espanyol and Athletico Madrid
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The last English team to win the Champions League was Liverpool in 2005. Before that, United in 1999. And United hasn't made the semi finals in a while. AC Milan demolished them. I actually remember when Manchester United couldn't make it out of the group stages, the same group with Villareal and Lille :lol:
But right, so we have 3 English teams in the semi finals. This is obviously good for England. But think about it; Chelsea played a Turkish team and a Greek team. No offense to you Turkey and Greece, but come on.
United played Lyon, and in my eyes were lucky when Tevez scored that tying goal away. Sure Lyon is France's best team by far, but we look at the fact that United relied on having a lot of luck and the best player in the world to get them through. Then United played Roma, who they are obviously familiar with playing. 7-1? And this isn't an easy draw for United? Especially when they have the best player in the world. Even then, Roma had to play without Totti, who definitely could have had an impact on the legs.
Liverpool had Inter Milan. This again shows the love refs have for Liverpool. I believe it was an extremely questionable red card recieved by Materazzi. And let's say it wasn't questionable. Then Liverpool had to wait for Gerrard to just rip a shot. Ohh, Benetiz must have used some ACE tactics to get Gerrard to rip a shot in. Torres, however, scored an excellent goal in the away match. So Liverpool does get good credit for this. Liverpool then proceeded to play Arsenal.
Arsenal had to play AC Milan. This, by far, was the only display that an English team put out that was eye opening and you all know it. This was the tie of the season, and Arsenal played the best football of the year at the San Siro. Anyone who watches the game here knows this. Arsenal then proceeded to play Liverpool.
So as for English teams, from what I see, Liverpool and Arsenal are the only one's who really proved something for England. The other two got easy draws; this is very true. So this season England happened to get the best out of the rest of world by luck. Yes, I belive luck played a big factor in a lot of the English victories. Even Drogba's lucky cross that got Chelsea an away goal.
So England has one all star year and the crowd goes wild, but again wait, English teams don't win the Champions League too often now do they? It's like saying Drogba is the best striker in the world because he scored 32 goals last season. It's consistency that makes a player the best. It's consistency that makes a league the best. :hello: So it may look like England has the better teams, but in the long run, they do not.
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The last English team to win the Champions League was Liverpool in 2005. Before that, United in 1999. And United hasn't made the semi finals in a while. AC Milan demolished them. I actually remember when Manchester United couldn't make it out of the group stages, the same group with Villareal and Lille :lol:
I'll never forget that.
2005/06: UEFA Champions League - group stage
2004/05: UEFA Champions League - first knockout round
2003/04: UEFA Champions League - first knockout round
Acting like Manchester United is the best club in the world when they haven't been able to even reach the quarter finals 3 years in a row getting knocked out by Benfica and what not. Its not about how many English clubs can make the Semi finals its about how many of them can win? Remember last year with Milan-Liverpool-Chelsea-United and Milan rained supreme? Don't even bother people.
Remember 99/00? Three Spanish teams 2 of them face off in the final
Valencia 5-3 Barcelona 4-1 1-2
Real Madrid 3-2 Bayern 2-0 1-2
02/03 Three Italian teams 2 of them face off in the final.
Real Madrid 3-4 Juventus
Milan (ag) 1-1 Internazionale
The only time I can remember 3 English teams being in the semi final none of them won. :lol:
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I am talking about right now, not the past 10 years. I would never make this thread if I were talking about the past.
This year, and maybe even the last year, England has had the best top teams. I don't think there's any reason for this to change over the next five years. England will continue to have the best top teams because of their attraction of rich owners and quality foreign players.
ELITE, you are talking about the match-ups like it was the first time its ever happened. In the past, teams have had easier draws than others. It happens every year, and it's not a good enough reason to take credit away from the English teams. To be honest, their road was not even easy. Roma beat Madrid, and then Roma got beat by Man U. Last year, they got raped even worse and they had Totti. Liverpool had Inter Milan, which was a very touch draw. Arsenal had Milan. That's all I have to say. And United played Lyon. Oh my God, what a easy draw?! :rolleyes:
How about Barcelona managing it through against Schalke? Very tough... there probably wouldn't even be a Spanish or Italian team left in the semis had Barca not had that easy draw.
I don't know about you all but there should be no reason to take anything away from what the English teams have been able to do.
I used to hate English football and everything that had to do with England, but I've learned to appreciate what they have done with their league. If I can say that they have the top clubs, I think some of you can as well. I see lots of members who are being stubborn and ignorant regarding English football. Give their league some credit... and by doing so, you are just giving their teams credit, not that shit national team that continues to under-perform.
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what ELITE is saying is right. and Adi i am sure that this year will be a one off english year. you have to look at the quality of the football. yes english teams may be winning right now but look do you really think they deserve it. Adi yeah english teams are not really the english national team but the way they play is exactly the same. right now the only time i think that plays real football is arsenal maybe because they dont have one english player on the field. :nopity:
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They don't play like England though... look at all the foreign talent on all the top English teams! That makes them play different. Hell, even the English top players are starting to play a better style of football.
To me it seems you are referring to English football from 10 years ago when Shearer used to bang in 30 goals a season. That's not how the game is played anymore in England. Whatever style English teams play is even better than what they play in Spain and Italy. It's 10 times more interesting.
And I think English teams are going to continue being the best in Europe over the next 5 years. Just look how the league has grown and how much money is in it. I hope you realize that money tends to run things nowadays. I don't agree with it but it's just the way it is. English teams are going to continue getting richer due to their owners and are therefore going to sign higher profile players. The English league is only getting better... sorry to break the news to you buddy.
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more intersting? you tell me what would you rather watch a match between Madird vs Barca or chelsea vs Man utd. i dont even have to think of the answer
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the only reason that Engish football looks better is because the money the teams have and all the foreign talent if they had the rules that other leagues have of limited foreign players they would be the shittest league not that they are far of at the moment
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If England had the best clubs last year and the year before, then the champions of England wouldn't have been trounced by AC Milan, who I think were in 3rd place or something. To be honest, the only reason that an English team has won the champions league recently was just a bizzare game when Liverpool came back.
The probability that an English team wins the Champions League is high this year. But just ask yourself how exciting the semi-final between Liverpool and Chelsea will be; neither of them play football :booty:
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If England had the best clubs last year and the year before
I'm pretty sure this thread is about this year and "maybe" last year.
then the champions of England wouldn't have been trounced by AC Milan, who I think were in 3rd place or something.
Who was second? Where was first? Good point. No really. I like how you don't let reality get in the way of a good argument. ;)
To be honest, the only reason that an English team has won the champions league recently was just a bizzare game when Liverpool came back.
Right now. Not 2 and 2/3 years ago. Not 3 3/8 years ago. This year. This season.
Liverpool and Chelsea will be; neither of them play football
Yeah. Those are two great basketball teams.
I would respond to the other posts, but I'm pretty sure you've all said similar things...over and over again.
Now, can you all get a decent discussion going? or are you all going to continue to suck each others cocks?
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Oh, well AC Milan was in second place i'm sorry.
You know, I can't sit here and say which league has the best teams based on one year. I don't see how all of you can either. It's one tournament, a knockout tournament at that. Imagine if there was a 38 game league compiled of different teams from the various leagues; this would be a way to see which country really does have the best teams.
The Champions League isn't the most accurate representation of which country has the better teams; it just shows who came to play in the knockout competition. Just like the World Cup or any other tournament; it gives a somewhat decent representation of who is better. Everything factors in to these sorts of things; perhaps if Chelsea had to play Roma they would have lost. It all depends on the two teams playing and how they match up against each other. It's more than being a good team, it's about being damn lucky.
A team like Manchester United can't be lucky and be in first place in England right now; they are outright better than the other teams because they've had the same matchups as every other teams. Inter Milan isn't lucky to be in first in Italy for the same reason. This is why I think it's not accurate to say that English teams are the best teams in the world because of thier performances in the Champions League for one season. If there was a growth of English teams winning the Champions League year after year, or more consitently, then it would be far easier to say that they are the better teams. I just don't see how you all can gather English teams being the best because they are 3 of them in the semi finals of the Champions League this year.
Really though, what if Barcelona wins the competition? I do not think this will happen, but what will you all say then? This season English teams are the best in the world, but Barcelona won the Champions League.
Another thing I'd like to point out; this is titled English Clubs are the best. What about the other teams? I know Adi began talking about the top teams, but the lower half and middle of the tables? I guess we'll look at the UEFA Cup? England hasn't been so hot in the UEFA Cup, what does this tell you about the rest of the league compared to the rest of the other leagues? So England has the best league in the world, but only 4 teams can play? Yes the Big 4 are always strong but they have no competition in the domestic league.
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Oh, well AC Milan was in second place i'm sorry.
They finished fourth. AS Roma finished second. That's what I was alluding to.
That's a reasonable post, but I don't think you can utilize a series of successes over years to determine who is the best team right at this moment of time. Teams change from year to year.
I think what Adi was trying to get at was that these English teams, right now, are better than all similar collections of teams all over the world. Whatever any other teams have acheived in these competitions in the past at these clubs is completely unrelated.
I'd agree with you that it's difficult to determine which collection of teams is better than the others through Champions League results. However, I also think that the burden of proof rests with those who disagree. I would argue that this proof needs to go beyond "it looks bad," "I don't like it," "it's technically inferior," etc.
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Well yes, teams change. And I understand what is being fed in front of me. But comparing the 1-4 of leagues by thier progress in a knockout tournament is rediculous. And this is why I said I can deal with Arsenal and Liverpool being better than two of Italy's top teams; they actually played and outplayed thier opponents. And even with them playing, it is still difficult to be able to outright say which teams are better. In single games, as I said, luck and a lot of things factor into games. Real Madrid hasn't played Chelsea, or United or so on and so forth. They havn't played the same teams in the same year, or gone through the same amount of games vs the same teams.
They aren't being put to the same tests is the main point i'm getting at. And I think this greatly factors into who is better.
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I know. I agreed with you. However, it's really the only available objective measure.
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Indeed, this is true.
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They won't respond.. they'll wait til Barca wins against someone and then say something.
I've responded; and yourself? I havn't read anything decent from you except "I've been saying it all along!"
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Here's my 2 cents..
Most of you are saying you can't get anything really decent from the Champion's League, such as a general understanding, but isn't this what that Champion's League is for?
The Champion's League separates the good teams from the bad teams. Teams that do well are the smart enough teams that have enough depth in their squad, like Manchester United. Look how much depth we have, enough to beat Roma and rest our top players for games in our own league. Why do you think English teams can do well in both tournaments? It's because they have enough depth and players to do so. You all criticized before of how Sir Alex Ferguson carries such a big squad, well this is why.
Now, you're probably saying, if United have so much depth, why'd they lose to Milan last year (which was because of injuries)? Well, teams change, like stated above. United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have made changes to their squads and made them even better.
United - Nani, Tevez, Anderson, Hargreaves (Pique being called up.)
Arsenal - Eduardo, & others.
Liverpool - Torres, Babel
Chelsea - Anelka
Barcelona have picked up players, but they don't have enough depth to rescue themselves. Sure, they're still in, but they only just made it.
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Haha. If Manchester United loses it was because of injuries. If Barcelona loses, it's because they lack depth.
If United lost because of injuries, then they didn't have depth :lol:
Calm down. The Champions League is not supposed to portray what league is the best. It can not do that. It is to determine what team came out to play in the knockout tournament.
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Yeah I know, but we've obviously made changes..
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...
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Look at Barca right now, a mess due to injuries. Where are there younger players to help out?
United have lost Neville and Silvestre for the longest time, but Brown was good to help out. Whenever Giggs or Scholes need a break, Nani and Anderson come in. Whenever SAF thinks Ronaldo should rest, Ji-Sung Park comes in.
All of these fill-in players are good enough to become their own team, and ofcourse beat Roma. :biggrin:
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I don't know why this is now an argument about United vs Barcelona but..
Giovanni Dos Santos, Bojan, and Eidur Gudjonson are all fill ins for Henry, Eto'o, Messi, Ronaldinho. Barcelona has depth; this just hasn't been thier domestic season. I don't think United is affected by ACON. Eto'o missing from injury and ACON is a big impact, and all Barcelona had to turn to, as Messi was injured as well, were two 17 year olds because Ronaldinho is completely out of form. It is obvious to see why Barcelona is struggling. But this is not the topic. You still havn't proven to me why English clubs are the best.
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Calm down. The Champions League is not supposed to portray what league is the best. It can not do that. It is to determine what team came out to play in the knockout tournament.
This is true to some extent, but when you have 3 out of the final 4 teams coming from England it says a little something. English teams have come a long way over the last 10 years. Their leagues has skyrocketed in popularity and talent, and there's no arguing that. On the other hand, the other top 3 leagues (Italy, Spain, and Germany) have all had trouble improving in those aspects. I really believe that England will continue to get better, and no matter who the top 4 English teams are, they will be Champions League contenders. If you look at Italy, Spain, or Germany, none of them have 4 teams that you can realistically consider contenders. It's usually two teams that have a shot at it, but that's it. With the English teams, they are consistently up there, and I doubt that's going to change with the amount of money coming into the league.
On another note, this has been a heck of a thread. Everyone is making good points and it's been very interesting to read the long posts from all of you. Let's keep it going.
a;sdlfkjas;df... nice posts in here. :thumbsup:
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ELITE, it's kind of hard when Adi does all the talking. You guys have enough knowledge to express yourselves in a better way than I can. After all, I'm only 15.
But..
English teams have so much money that they can afford to bring in new players every year and still have a lot of money. They get so much media and attention, bringing in more money, which brings in more players. Real Madrid used to be the richest club, but now they've slowly decreased. English teams have really good academies, and from there, than can pick out young talent. Arsenal beat Milan simply because they were faster than them. Age becomes a factor, and it seems to me that you can find younger players in the EPL. Now, I know there are tons in other league, but maybe not as much as the EPL. Yes, Barca has young talent, but that's one club.
Give me a break. :biggrin:
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ELITE, it's kind of hard when Adi does all the talking. You guys have enough knowledge to express yourselves in a better way than I can. After all, I'm only 15.
You don't have to feel you can't speak out. Sometimes it's good to think outside the box and come up with something different to say. I know we tend to cover a big part of the topic, but there's always a little something else that can be chipped in to throw the whole thing off.
Just look at ELITE and melbourne. It seems they say some things just to throw off arguements. They may not necessarily believe the things they say, but they still post them to make things a bit interesting.
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Thanks, I'm trying to chip in. :biggrin:
I edited my last post by the way.. keep this thread rolling. :banana:
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borg i really like your input.You being 15 also,you have some good thoughts and a brain on your shoulders :P this thread is very good,i am enjoying everyones input.I do not have much to say about english leagues,because i will talk for days :P hahaa
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English teams have come a long way over the last 10 years. Their leagues has skyrocketed in popularity and talent, and there's no arguing that. On the other hand, the other top 3 leagues (Italy, Spain, and Germany) have all had trouble improving in those aspects.
I don't see how you can say that Italy, Spain, and Germany are trouble improving thier aspects of talent and popularity. This is the first time a World Player of the year will come out of England, it's highly unlikely that Ronaldo will not win the award. With that being said, it isn't Italy, Spain, and Germany having trouble improving, but it is England improving. English teams always have the right amount of foreign quality talent to make it an exciting league. I've never taken credit away from the league. In fact, personally it is what I'd rather watch. This does not mean it is the better league though.
When you analyze the players that have World Player of the Year potential written on them, I would say there are maybe 3 in England: Ronaldo, Torres, and Fabregas (the latter two not so much yet). Spain and Italy are not lacking in talent, and are in fact richer in youthful talent. So it is only English teams improving that makes it seem like they are in fact better. To be fair, it is true that Germany and France do not have the top teams to cut it like England, Spain, or Italy.
Also when you say that "no matter what the top 4 teams are in England they will be CL contenders" you are highly mistaken. Remember when Everton lucked out and qualified? They were trounced by Villareal before the group stages. I don't think any other English team could cut the Champions League to be honest, being that the "top 4" sometimes struggle themselves to do so.
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Also when you say that "no matter what the top 4 teams are in England they will be CL contenders" you are highly mistaken. Remember when Everton lucked out and qualified? They were trounced by Villareal before the group stages. I don't think any other English team could cut the Champions League to be honest, being that the "top 4" sometimes struggle themselves to do so.
That's my point... the top 4 in England are regularly Champions League contenders... ALL OF THEM! In Spain and Italy, it's usually only two teams that are even mentioned to make it through to the group stages, let alone the semis or finals.
This is the first time a World Player of the year will come out of England, it's highly unlikely that Ronaldo will not win the award. With that being said, it isn't Italy, Spain, and Germany having trouble improving, but it is England improving. English teams always have the right amount of foreign quality talent to make it an exciting league. I've never taken credit away from the league. In fact, personally it is what I'd rather watch. This does not mean it is the better league though.
The World Player of the Year award does not consider the overall quality of the top teams in England... it's just one player. I don't know how one player can show how much a league is improving. Either way, England has had a top 3 finisher in the World Player of the Year in 6 out of the last 8 years. And you know how close it is every year when it comes to the winner. Anyone in the top 3 deserves it to be honest.
By the way, the Premiership had total club revenues of over £1.4 billion in 2005–06 season, 40% above its nearest competitor: Italy's Serie A. That number alone shows you how much money is in England. As I mentioned before, money talks, not the FIFA World Player of the Year award. It's the sad truth and you know it. With all the money and investments in England, you can't help but admit that the Premiership has a brighter future.
Spain and Italy are not lacking in talent, and are in fact richer in youthful talent. So it is only English teams improving that makes it seem like they are in fact better.
What?! :saywhat:
The fact that English teams are improving makes them seem better? Top Premiership teams have already beating all the Spanish and Italian teams this year (except for Barca) AND the English teams are also improving at a faster rate than the Spanish and Italian teams like you just said.
What does this mean?
Already better + Improving at faster rate = Definitely better over the next 5-10 years.
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ELITE means that because English teams are improving at such a fast rate, the rapidity of their improvement alone is overshafowing the slower, steadier imporovement of the Spanish and Italian leagues, both of which are on an equally high level.
And now for my ideas: I would not say that England has the top league in the world. I would say that they have the top 'top 4 teams' in the world. But below those 4, the quality of soccer drops significantly. It deteriorates into the old English 'long ball, run hard' style of play, which would get them nowhere against an Italian or Spanish team in a similar position in their respective leagues. Take Spain for example: almost all Spanish teams play beautiful, well crafted soccer. It is the teams with flair that rule the league, and that is the main difference between a team like Bilbao and a team like Barcelona. In England, teams are separated by flair, and also by an incredible stylistic gap created by a lack of foreign-born talent in the lower teams. Lets admit it: English players like to lob the ball and run. You dont see that with teams like Man U and Chelsea because they have foreign talent. In Spain and other countries, all plauers are trained to play possession, and to play some sort of adaptation of Cruyff's Total Football. The lower quality English clubs dont do that yet.
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Look you can't judge which league is the best league in the world reflecting on one season, especially a season thats not over. I remember Alex Ferguson spoke too soon last year when we had 3 English teams in the semis. The same thing is happening here, what your trying to do is base your argument that English teams are the best because their are 3 of their teams in the semi final thats a pretty weak foundation for an argument. No one at end of the day remembers who reached the semi final. Secondly one season doesn't determine the best league, a few seasons do.
If English teams are more dominant meaning winning the Champions league often recently than you have a strong case but besides Liverpool none of them have won it since United in 99. While Spanish and Italian teams have been winning it more and more often. You can't say English teams dominate Europe even if an English team win it this season. Its like saying the Portuguese league is the best when Porto won it in 04. If you said England has the best league between 1977-1988 when they won it every year understandable.
Now that we have set that straight your second point would be that English teams are improving and playing a more entertaining brand of football than the other leagues. How you gonna say that when the big 4 are only getting bigger and everyone else is not moving forward. A predictable league cannot be entertaining because I'll know the result of a game between lest say Manchester and Astonvilla 20 minutes after kick off. The improvement of teams have to be equally distributed. I can predict that the top 4 will finish in the top 4 and that 2 of the newly promoted teams will go back down with another struggler form last season.
Look at La Liga for example their is not permanent top 4 Depo has won it once and Velencia have won it twice in the last decade. Teams like Bilbao, Depo, Solciodad, Marlloca, Sevilla and Valencia have featured heavily in the title races. While in England It remained Arsenal - United - and most recently Chelsea in the title race every single year.
And even this season I'm clearly convinced that an all La Liga XI can beat and all Premier League XI so I don't see what better supper stars and superior football that is being played in England thats not being played in Italy or Spain.
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Look you can't judge which league is the best league in the world reflecting on one season, especially a season thats not over. I remember Alex Ferguson spoke too soon last year when we had 3 English teams in the semis. The same thing is happening here, what your trying to do is base your argument that English teams are the best because their are 3 of their teams in the semi final thats a pretty weak foundation for an argument. No one at end of the day remembers who reached the semi final. Secondly one season doesn't determine the best league, a few seasons do.
This was never an argument over the best league in the world.
If English teams are more dominant meaning winning the Champions league often recently than you have a strong case but besides Liverpool none of them have won it since United in 99. While Spanish and Italian teams have been winning it more and more often. You can't say English teams dominate Europe even if an English team win it this season. Its like saying the Portuguese league is the best when Porto won it in 04. If you said England has the best league between 1977-1988 when they won it every year understandable.
It was never about any other year.
The improvement of teams have to be equally distributed.
Where are these 50-50 leagues? There's a reason Levante is on 19 points in La Liga.
In England, teams are separated by flair, and also by an incredible stylistic gap created by a lack of talent in the lower teams.
The lower teams are not exactly at a loss for foreign "talent." They're just at a general loss for talent.
I think that any problem goes far beyond any simple "stylistic" deficiency. Very English teams have done very well in the past.
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this is an unbeilevable thread.
you cant deny the fact that english teams are improving but saying that they are better then teams in the seria a and la liga is a gross overstatement.
i know what your thinking they beat them now. but if you look at the past you can clearly see who is better. as for the future we will just have to wait and see. but if you look at the style of play and the players it obviouse who is better. but games are not won on paper.
right now the english teams just ran and shoot. that is why they are winning. but i totally do not call that playing football.
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The lower teams are not exactly at a loss for foreign "talent." They're just at a general loss for talent.
I think that any problem goes far beyond any simple "stylistic" deficiency. Very English teams have done very well in the past.
The fact is that most homegrown English players have very little talent or flair on the ball. Neither do they have good vision. Therefore, the only style that they play is the lob-and-run style, which is generally ineffective against a team that playus a more refined style. For a more refined style, teams need more talented players who have more vision, and those players just arent found very much in England.
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The fact is that most homegrown English players have very little talent or flair on the ball. Neither do they have good vision. Therefore, the only style that they play is the lob-and-run style, which is generally ineffective against a team that playus a more refined style. For a more refined style, teams need more talented players who have more vision, and those players just arent found very much in England.
The generic English player does not play with very much flair on the ball. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they do not have good vision.
Again, very English teams have done very well in the past against these "superior" styles. I do not think that the problem lies in a general stylistic deficiency. I think that this problem could lie in a shallow English talent pool.
Then again, it's not like too many teams in any top level league are playing with an overwhelming amount of domestic talent.
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Also when you say that "no matter what the top 4 teams are in England they will be CL contenders" you are highly mistaken. Remember when Everton lucked out and qualified? They were trounced by Villareal before the group stages. I don't think any other English team could cut the Champions League to be honest, being that the "top 4" sometimes struggle themselves to do so.
That's my point... the top 4 in England are regularly Champions League contenders... ALL OF THEM! In Spain and Italy, it's usually only two teams that are even mentioned to make it through to the group stages, let alone the semis or finals.
This is the first time a World Player of the year will come out of England, it's highly unlikely that Ronaldo will not win the award. With that being said, it isn't Italy, Spain, and Germany having trouble improving, but it is England improving. English teams always have the right amount of foreign quality talent to make it an exciting league. I've never taken credit away from the league. In fact, personally it is what I'd rather watch. This does not mean it is the better league though.
The World Player of the Year award does not consider the overall quality of the top teams in England... it's just one player. I don't know how one player can show how much a league is improving. Either way, England has had a top 3 finisher in the World Player of the Year in 6 out of the last 8 years. And you know how close it is every year when it comes to the winner. Anyone in the top 3 deserves it to be honest.
By the way, the Premiership had total club revenues of over £1.4 billion in 2005–06 season, 40% above its nearest competitor: Italy's Serie A. That number alone shows you how much money is in England. As I mentioned before, money talks, not the FIFA World Player of the Year award. It's the sad truth and you know it. With all the money and investments in England, you can't help but admit that the Premiership has a brighter future.
Spain and Italy are not lacking in talent, and are in fact richer in youthful talent. So it is only English teams improving that makes it seem like they are in fact better.
What?! :saywhat:
The fact that English teams are improving makes them seem better? Top Premiership teams have already beating all the Spanish and Italian teams this year (except for Barca) AND the English teams are also improving at a faster rate than the Spanish and Italian teams like you just said.
What does this mean?
Already better + Improving at faster rate = Definitely better over the next 5-10 years.
I brought up the World Player of the Year because of the fact that you said other leagues where lacking in talent.
Also, I never said the English league isn't improving. It will probably be the best league in the world in a few years, but then again, it might not. What I am trying to say is that because the other leagues are improving at a slower rate than England, it makes it seem like they are declining because of the rate England is improving.
Money does talk, but I don't use that as a basis to judge what league is the best. All that means is the majority of the Asian population is buying more Manchester shirts :biggrin:
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this is an unbeilevable thread.
you cant deny the fact that english teams are improving but saying that they are better then teams in the seria a and la liga is a gross overstatement.
i know what your thinking they beat them now. but if you look at the past you can clearly see who is better. as for the future we will just have to wait and see. but if you look at the style of play and the players it obviouse who is better. but games are not won on paper.
right now the english teams just ran and shoot. that is why they are winning. but i totally do not call that playing football.
If everyone knows that then why don't the super defending Italian teams defend it?
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Please, Borg, if the English league is better than Serie A it is not by much. Don't get so carried away with it. Two games in a quarter final and English teams are automatically better :rolleyes:
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Haha, it's funny how everything is directed at me when other people are fighting your statements as well.
Bullshit.
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I direct it at you because I want to read something from you that is longer than 2 lines. You havn't really given me your point of view, yet you are chiming in with lame remarks.
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I actually did post before, you obviously must have missed it. And it's tough for me because Adi gives all these examples and I would just be repeating them.
English clubs get so much more attention throughout the world. I mean, the top 4 have so much fans worldwide, and now, the title race has become more and more exciting. Before, it was just Chelsea, Chelsea and Chelsea, but now we're seeing some variation. United won it last year, and yes, have very good chances of winning it again, but up until now it was a dog race. Arsenal had an 8 point lead, but look how fast that turned around. That just goes to show the quality of all the lower teams in the EPL, they still fight and fight for a spot in the Premier League.
Split the EPL in 3.
You've got the CL/Title Race group, then the UEFA Cup group, and then the Relegation Zone group. All these matches within the same group mean so much, and each team takes it so seriously. Also, maybe 5 years ago, you could predict any match, now it's becoming tougher.
The EPL may use to be boring a few years back, but now no one that likes football can say that. You've got quality players on every team and huge stars. The title race is getting more fun to watch due to variation, and the FA Cup has tons of surprises.
History is history, but now, you can't take anything away from the EPL, it's beginning to match the other leagues, if not be better than them.
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Split the EPL in 3.
You've got the CL/Title Race group, then the UEFA Cup group, and then the Relegation Zone group. All these matches within the same group mean so much, and each team takes it so seriously. Also, maybe 5 years ago, you could predict any match, now it's becoming tougher.
its like that in every league. But the quality of the lower english teams is such that they cannot compete with the lower Spanish or Italian teams.
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you know borg. its not easy to handle when someone is running like a bullet at you, and when you pull back to try to defend against him. he takes a shot from 40 meters out. that is not football.
and calm down it just a discussion.
i agree with you when you say it is begining to match other leagues. but saying its better has just gone too far.
split the sera a in 3
CL/league contenders: inter, roma, ac milan, juve
uefa cup: fiorentina, sampdoria,
relegation group: catania, calguri, chievo
and there are always suprises. who expected Almeria in the la liga to do soo well.
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Obviously it's football because many players do that around the world and it works. :rolleyes:
Not all teams play by the same playbook, they make up their own style.
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I must agree with Borg. Long shots take as much skill as short ranged, however, it is true that they can at times be lucky. But it's all part of the game.
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like i siad in the other thread
theres no such thing as best team in the world but there are catagories like Madrid, Man U, Arsneal, Barc, Inter, Roma etc are in 1 and every team has good and bad days the top teams all have great talent but its a matter of the blend of the team, and the profrmance on the day never ending concictancy is rare and the season Arsenal were untouchable they still didn't win the league, funny,
plus all the league have their heavy wieghts, under proformers and surprise packages so it all about the skill of not only one team but the opponents, the refs judgements and the condition of the pitch and who it favours
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everybody: I think we are losing sight of the issue here. We are pitting the top 4 teams in each league against each other to determine who is the best. In order to determine whether or not the EPL is the top league in the world, we must consider the ENTIRE league. I adressed this issue in earlier posts...
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no how much time you put teams against each other that are almost equal it impossible to say that both sides where at their best and ref didn't make one mistake it was a perfect match plus it impossible to have everyone agree on everything if that happen then there would be no need for forums, elections, or anything this would be a plain world
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no how much time you put teams against each other that are almost equal it impossible to say that both sides where at their best and ref didn't make one mistake it was a perfect match plus it impossible to have everyone agree on everything if that happen then there would be no need for forums, elections, or anything this would be a plain world
I only meant that we need to take the crap teams into consideration as well
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everybody: I think we are losing sight of the issue here. We are pitting the top 4 teams in each league against each other to determine who is the best. In order to determine whether or not the EPL is the top league in the world, we must consider the ENTIRE league. I adressed this issue in earlier posts...
"Does England have the strongest top clubs out of any league"
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tito is right here. if you put man utd against barca many times. i am sure barca will win 4 times and man utd win 4. or something along those lines. and other teams would be the same.
and borg football is about passing skill and flair. not one english man has that.
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tito is right here. if you put man utd against barca many times. i am sure barca will win 4 times and man utd win 4. or something along those lines. and other teams would be the same.
and borg football is about passing skill and flair. not one english man has that.
I agree with everything in this post. nuff said
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and borg football is about passing skill and flair. not one english man has that.
I would argue that it's about scoring more goals than your opponent.
Wrong.
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Joe Cole has "passing skill and flair"
Theo Walcott has "passing skill and flair"
Crouch (to be honest) has "passing skill and flair"
It is true that all of this Joga Bonito business is a great addition to the game; but when it boils down to it, it's about winning and scoring goals.
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Tom Huddlestone
Michael Carrick
Paul Scholes
Lee Trundle
David Beckham
etc.
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Huddlestone :banana:
One of his most recent goals was amazing.
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no how much time you put teams against each other that are almost equal it impossible to say that both sides where at their best and ref didn't make one mistake it was a perfect match plus it impossible to have everyone agree on everything if that happen then there would be no need for forums, elections, or anything this would be a plain world
I only meant that we need to take the crap teams into consideration as well
valid point cause Derby could beat Barca anydayHuddlestone :banana:
One of his most recent goals was amazing.
Huddlestone has a bag of great goal what about the one against chelsea from the corner sweetly hit
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compare those player to ronaldinho, kaka, ronaldo, juninho, figo, ibrahimovic, essein, zokora, zidane, riquelme, messi
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Honestly besides Joe Cole, SWP and Lennon strictly, none of the current English players are technical players and even these special ones lack finishing. As moby said put them against other skillful players of other countries they don't compare.
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Honestly besides Joe Cole, SWP and Lennon strictly, none of the current English players are technical players and even these special ones lack finishing. As moby said put them against other skillful players of other countries they don't compare.
What the hell qualifies you as technical then? Stepovers? Cool moves?
That's not what Moby initially said. Plus, I'd put the "passing skill" of Paul Scholes and Tom Huddlestone up against just about anyone in the world
:bowdown:
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It's obvious Joe Cole isn't better than Kaka :rolleyes:
But who is talking about comparisons? This is all about the fact that Moby said that "No English man has passing skill or flair"
Don't try to distort the argument; it's not about who is better than Ronaldinho.
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tito is right here. if you put man utd against barca many times. i am sure barca will win 4 times and man utd win 4. or something along those lines. and other teams would be the same.
and borg football is about passing skill and flair. not one english man has that.
I've said that already, but you disagreed with me.. weird.
Nice Scholes video! And exactly, the list can go on and on. Add Hargreaves in there, even though he was born in Canada. :biggrin:
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but you never put it down like i do
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Hargreaves doesn't count. He is one of us, even though he betrayed us :cursing:
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borg i never saw your post that said that. no one here can say an english player is equal to any other player in the world. and thats a fact
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i dont follow Pro football anymore, i will watch a odd game here and there, and sportcenter Top 10, but i dont watch the matches as i used to, only the ones of England national squad, the only games i do follow of Clubs are the ones of Bayer Munich, there unstopable this season, and there going to win it ALL, Oliver kahn is the greatest goalkeeper of all times, and he is going to retire this year, so BM winning everything will be a nice way of thanking him for all the years of great goalkeeping
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yeah they're not in the final four, a10s. you're right, you dont follow pro soccer anymore, do you?
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no one here can say an english player is equal to any other player in the world. and thats a fact
I mean, are you stupid? I know English players aren't the best, but individually they have great players. Jermaine Defoe, Joe Cole, SWP, and so on and so forth. They are quality players that can play with the best in the world.
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but are they equal to players like ronaldinho, deco, maniche, etc. as far as i know i'll rather have c.ronaldo then an english in my team.
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individual talent is important but ain't as important as 11+ players, like i said a player can improve but can be a team if you go and put 11 against 1 player the game would finish over 50 to nil, and even if give them the best goalie still would be the same score. weather Defoe or Ronaldinho it doesn't make a difference plus Ronaldinho isn't quiet as good as he was and was letting Barca down yes Ronaldinho i'm not saying Ronaldinho is a shit player or Defoe would do better i'm just saying its not a one man club if one isn't at his best it could be like building a house starting from the roof it just impossible a structure without a base or support is like a team without team work and like they say theres no i in team
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individual talent is important but ain't as important as 11+ players, like i said a player can improve but can be a team if you go and put 11 against 1 player the game would finish over 50 to nil, and even if give them the best goalie still would be the same score. weather Defoe or Ronaldinho it doesn't make a difference plus Ronaldinho isn't quiet as good as he was and was letting Barca down yes Ronaldinho i'm not saying Ronaldinho is a shit player or Defoe would do better i'm just saying its not a one man club if one isn't at his best it could be like building a house starting from the roof it just impossible a structure without a base or support is like a team without team work and like they say theres no i in team
your right Bro, but 11 mediocre team players are no good either, every team has to have at least one Star, and one man that can take on the defences and score a goal, and that can finish a play when its needed (like me), there both equaly important, 1 star who never does passes or dosent understand himself with the rest of the team, is no good, but 11 mediocre players who understand the rest of the team perfectly are no good either, its like Ying-yang :biggrin:
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individual talent is important but ain't as important as 11+ players, like i said a player can improve but can be a team if you go and put 11 against 1 player the game would finish over 50 to nil, and even if give them the best goalie still would be the same score. weather Defoe or Ronaldinho it doesn't make a difference plus Ronaldinho isn't quiet as good as he was and was letting Barca down yes Ronaldinho i'm not saying Ronaldinho is a shit player or Defoe would do better i'm just saying its not a one man club if one isn't at his best it could be like building a house starting from the roof it just impossible a structure without a base or support is like a team without team work and like they say theres no i in team
your right Bro, but 11 mediocre team players are no good either, every team has to have at least one Star, and one man that can take on the defences and score a goal, and that can finish a play when its needed (like me), there both equaly important, 1 star who never does passes or dosent understand himself with the rest of the team, is no good, but 11 mediocre players who understand the rest of the team perfectly are no good either, its like Ying-yang :biggrin:
its not all about attack, i feel Goalkeepers and Defenders are under-rated and under-appreciated, yes you do need one super-star that can take defenses on but you also need one goalkeeper that can keep goals out one defender that can stop the other teams attacks (minimum) one midfielder than ca keep a good link between defense and attack and step up the forwards (minimum) and you need them all on the same page
a team is like a orcastra not one of tone player needed, they all have have to play to the same tune